What Believers and Atheists Can Teach Each Other

From Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman of Sinai and Synapses and Sam McNerney:

Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman: It’s inherently challenging for believers and atheists to have productive conversations. Discussing topics such as belief and nonbelief, the potential irrationality of religion, or the limits of scientific knowledge is difficult since each side often ends up more firmly entrenched in their own worldview.

But one bright person interested in broadening the conversation is Sam McNerney, a science writer who focuses on cognitive science and an atheist interested in religion from a psychological point of view.

I found Sam through his writing for Scientific American, and started reading his blog Why We Reason and his posts on Big Think. We discovered that even though we approached religion from different perspectives, we had great respect for each other.

So as two people with different religious outlooks, we wondered: what can we learn from each other?

Sam McNerney: There are many things we can learn. Let’s take one: the role of authority.

A recent New York Times article points out that secular liberal atheists tend to conflate authority, loyalty, and sanctity with racism, sexism, and homophobia. It’s not difficult to see why. Societies suffer when authority figures, being motivated by sacred values and religious beliefs, forbid their citizens from challenging the status quo. But a respect for authority and the principles they uphold to some degree is necessary if societies seek to maintain order and justice and function properly. The primatologist Frans de Waal explains it this way: “Without agreement on rank and a certain respect for authority there can be no great sensitivity to social rules, as anyone who has tried to teach simple house rules to a cat will agree.”

Ironically, atheists’ steadfast allegiance to rationality, secular thinking, and the importance of open-mindedness blinds them to important religious values, including respect for authority. As a result, atheists tend to confuse authority with exploitation and evil and undervalue the vital role authority plays in a healthy society.

Mitelman: You accurately bring up one aspect of why organized religion can be so complicated: It is intertwined with power. And I’m glad you note that authority and power are not inherently bad when it comes to religion. In fact, as you also say, a certain degree of authority is necessary.

To me, the real problem arises when religion adds another element into the mix: certainty. It’s a toxic combination to have religious authorities with the power to influence others claiming to “know” with 100 percent certainty that they’re right and everyone else is wrong.

One thing I learned from several atheists is the importance of skepticism and doubt. Indeed, while certainty leads to arrogance, uncertainty leads to humility. We open up the conversation and value diverse experiences when we approach the world with a perspective of “I’m not sure” or “I could be wrong.”

Recently, astrophysicist Adam Frank wrote a beautiful piece on NPR’s blog 13.7 about how valuable uncertainty can be:

Dig around in most of the world’s great religious traditions and you find people finding their sense of grace by embracing uncertainty rather than trying to bury it in codified dogmas …

Though I am an atheist, some of the wisest people I have met are those whose spiritual lives (some explicitly religious, some not) have forced them to continually confront uncertainty. This daily act has made them patient and forgiving, generous and inclusive. Likewise, the atheists I have met who most embody the ideals of free inquiry seem to best understand the limitations of every perspective, including their own. They encounter the ever shifting ground of their lives with humor, good will and compassion.

Certainty can be seductive, but it hurts our ability to engage with others in constructive ways. Thus when religious people talk about God, belief, or faith, we have to approach the conversation with a little humility and recognize that we don’t have a monopoly on the truth. In the words of Rabbi Brad Hirschfield, we need to realize that another person doesn’t have to be wrong for us to be right.

This doesn’t mean believers and atheists will agree on the role of religion in society, the validity of a particular belief system, or even the very existence of God. In fact, believers and atheists will almost certainly continue to vehemently disagree about these questions. But we have to remember that not all disagreements are bad. Some arguments are quite beneficial because they help us gain a deeper understanding of reality, encourage clearer thinking, and broaden people’s perspectives.

The rabbis even draw a distinction between two different kinds of arguments. Arguments they call “for the sake of heaven” will always be valuable, while arguments that are only for self-aggrandizement will never be productive (Avot 5:20). So I’m not interested in arguments that devolve into mocking, ridicule, name-calling, or one-upmanship. But I’d gladly participate in any discussion if we are arguing about how we make ourselves and this world better, and would actively strive to involve whoever wants to be part of that endeavor, regardless of what they may or may not believe.

McNerney: You are right to point out that both atheists and believers under the illusion of certainty smother potentially productive dialogue with disrespectful rhetoric. What’s alarming is that atheism in the United States is now more than nonbelief. It’s an intense and widely shared sentiment where a belief in God is not only false, but also ridiculous. Pointing out how irrational religion can be is entertaining for too many.

There’s no doubt that religious beliefs influence negative behavioral consequences, so atheists are right to criticize religion on many epistemological claims. But I’ve learned from believers and my background in cognitive psychology that faith-based beliefs are not necessarily irrational.

Consider a clever study recently conducted by Kevin Rounding of Queen’s University in Ontario that demonstrates how religion helps increase self-control. In two experiments participants (many of whom identified as atheists) were primed with a religious mindset—they unscrambled short sentences containing words such as “God,” “divine,” and “Bible.” Compared with a control group, they were able to drink more sour juice and were more willing to accept six dollars in a week instead of five dollars immediately. Similar lines of research show that religious people are less likely to develop unhealthy habits like drinking, taking drugs, smoking, and engaging in risky sex.

Studies also suggest that religious and spiritual people, especially those living in the developing world, are happier and live longer, on average, than nonbelievers. Religious people also tend to feel more connected to something beyond themselves, a sentiment that contributes to well-being significantly.

It’s unclear if these findings are correlative or causal—it’s likely that many of the benefits that come from believing in God arise not from beliefs per se but from strong social ties that religious communities do such a good job of fostering. Whatever the case, this research should make atheists pause before they dismiss all religious beliefs as irrational or ridiculous.

Mitelman: It’s interesting—that actually leads to another area where atheists have pushed believers in important ways, namely, to focus less on the beliefs themselves, and more on how those beliefs manifest themselves in actions. And to paraphrase Steven Pinker, the actions that religious people need to focus on are less about “saving souls” and more about “improving lives.”

For much of human history, the goal of religion was to get people to believe a certain ideology or join a certain community. “Being religious” was a value in and of itself, and was often simply a given, but today, we live in a world where people are free to choose what they believe in. So now, the goal of religion should be to help people find more fulfillment in their own lives and to help people make a positive impact on others’ lives.

It’s important to note that people certainly do not need religion to act morally or find fulfillment. But as Jonathan Haidt writes in his new book The Righteous Mind, religion can certainly make it easier.

Haidt argues that our mind is like a rider who sits atop an elephant to suggest that our moral deliberations (the rider) are post-hoc rationalizations of our moral intuitions (the elephant). The key to his metaphor is that intuitions comes first (and are much more powerful), and strategic reason comes afterward.

We need our rider because it allows us to think critically. But our elephant is also important because it motivates us to connect with others who share a moral vision. Ultimately, if we are striving to build communities and strengthen our morals, we cannot rely exclusively on either the rider or the elephant; we need both. As Haidt explains:

If you live in a religious community, you are enmeshed in a set of norms, institutions and relationships that work primarily on the elephant to influence your behavior. But if you are an atheist living in a looser community with a less binding moral matrix, you might have to rely somewhat more on an internal moral compass, read by the rider. That might sound appealing to rationalists, but it is also a recipe for … a society that no longer has a shared moral order. [And w]e evolved to live, trade and trust within shared moral matrices.

Since religion is a human construct, with its “norms, institutions and relationships,” it can be used in a variety of different ways. It can obviously be used to shut down critical thinking and oppress others. But as you mention, religion has positive effects on well-being, and religious beliefs correlate with a sense of fulfillment. Perhaps the job of religion, then, should be giving us a common language, rituals, and communities that reinforce and strengthen our ability to become better human beings and find joy and meaning in our lives.

Ultimately, we don’t have to agree with someone in order to learn from them. As Ben Zoma, a second-century Jewish sage, reminds us: “Who is wise? The person who learns from all people” (Avot 4:1). When we are willing to open ourselves up to others, we open ourselves up to new ideas and different perspectives.

Indeed, I have come to believe that our purpose as human beings—whether we identify as a believer, an atheist, or anything in between—is to better ourselves and our world. And any source of knowledge that leads us to that goal is worth pursuing.

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5 Responses

  1. Atheist says:

    This article is incredibly insulting, and very shortsighted towards Atheists and other non-believers. You first must accept that the chance that you believe what you do is solely based off of where you were born. To argue against this would be ignorant and just plain incorrect. Then after you accept this fact, you will see that the reason you disbelieve in Hinduism, Greek Gods, Egyptian Gods and Norse Gods is because you were not indoctrinated into that religion. You are a product of society, and until you understand that bit about yourself, you won’t understand why this social construct that is Religion is unneeded and only a hindrance to actual academic and societal progression.


    Enabling constructive dialogue must be a positive endeavor from either a religious or a humanist perspective. Are the elbows of the new-atheists too sharp?

  3. Atheist_2 says:

    Rabbi Geoffrey Mitelman. Have this type of reasoned give and take conversation with Muqtada al-Sadr, a person of ahhh…religion, and when you come away from it, head hopefully still attached, we’ll talk.

  4. Atheist 3 says:

    Great piece. These comments are way off. Did you guys even read the piece? Apparently any article on religion that does not denounce it entirely is insulting to us now? One of the authors is an atheist! Let me sum up the article – It doesn’t matter what you believe, what is more important is how you act. Apparently this is something to be disagreed with? I guess it is more important to be atheist than to be decent and religious?

    We can all learn a lot from each other, and the only way to do that is to have respectful discussions. If you guys want to plug your fingers in your ears and whine all day fine, I just hope people don’t start to believe all us atheists are like this.

    In all seriousness you guys should try re-reading it (or reading it for the first time)

  5. Atheist_2 says:

    Atheist 3. Because 2 reasonable, respectful people got together for a single conversation does not a template make for dialogue between other than the two mentioned.
    I certainly would love to engage in meaningful discourse with religious people, however; the harsh reality is that for most – but, not all – of them, their ultimate agenda, and adherence to dogma, overrides the true spirit of free and open discourse.
    How would the Rabbi be greeted by the Hasidim in Boro Park, Brooklyn if he suggested they entertain a civil dialogue with Atheists? Not nearly as well as we Atheists would.
    What you believe and how you demonstrate that belief is everything. While my words may sound harsh to you, I haven’t cut any heads off…lately.

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